34. Copy Chats - How Breanna Owen Uses Human Design To Write Copy

In this episode, Samantha sits down with Breanna Owen of Owen Your Mark for a candid conversation about what separates two copywriters who write emails for a living. Breanna uses human design theory to inform the emails she writes, eliminating the guesswork of which messaging strategies will feel good and convert for each business owner. Samantha brings the sales psychology and launch strategy angle, and together they dig into what it looks like when two copywriters geek out about the stuff most business owners don't even know to ask about.

This one started as a Voxer thread and turned into a full episode. Worth it.

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Transcript

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Breanna. Hi. I'm so happy that we're doing this, Samantha. Hi. I'm so happy that we're doing this bringing our Voxer conversations and just adding a camera to them. Amazing. Yeah. This is what your copywriter talks about in the Voxer chats. What are we talking about? What is happening in the copy world? There was our wtf. Feedback. Conversation a couple weeks ago that made it live onto my podcast two episodes ago. So good. Such a good conversation. And then sometimes we get a little spicy, like what's the difference between what you do and what I do and why are you better than me all the time? Not better. We have very, we have different strengths. And also this is why there are more than two copywriters in the world, is because we each bring like our own different flavor and spice to the work that we do. And that serves people differently. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about our flavor and our spice. And when people should reach out to you, when they should reach out to me. How does that sound? Oh, that sounds great. Let's do it. Okay, perfect. Can I try and introduce you and then do we wanna do the introductions? Everyone. This is Breanna Owen of Owen your Mark. She also has an incredible podcast called Own Your Mark, and she writes. Emails for people using their human design. What I find interesting about what she does is not only does every individual have a human design, but their businesses do too. And when you use your human design to market your business. Fill in the blanks for me. Like it helps you stand out differently. Yeah. What did I miss? Yeah. Yeah. When you use your human design for your marketing, your messaging, your copy, your business, it helps eliminate the guesswork of 90% of the infinite options that are out there, but are really not going to work well for you. And just really narrows it down so that we're focusing on the things that are. Meant to because they're based off of your own design, like they're going to land well and it's gonna feel good for you as the business owner and the writer too. Yeah. Yeah. And what is human design? Oh I will say, like, I look at it as it, it is a tool. It is a resource. If you wanna get into like all the technical things, it's a cumulation of about seven different systems, the Kabbalah, the ing, like astrology, like all sorts of different things like really woven together. But it is your genetic blueprint of your personality, your characteristics, like who you were always meant to be. Well-meaning people and sometimes not well-meaning culture, comes in and tries to tell you who they think you should be. So this just gives us a blueprint to go back to that is just like, ah, this is who I'm meant to be. This is how I'm going to feel the best when I show up this way. Like, human design is that resource for me. So often I see people on threads or people come to me and they're like, but how do I get my personality into my copy? And I think a lot of times people don't really know what their personality is to be able to then put it into their copy. And so I see this as a really good resource for people too. To say, okay, well this almost gives me a little bit of rules around how to be myself. Yep. Yeah. Especially if you are, like, I have shared before on my podcast and other places how I didn't really know who I was and I was going through this. Self-discovery process of trying to figure out who I was. And you know, I was in my thirties at that point and asking other people hadn't gone so well for me for the last 30 years. I wasn't about to go ask people again, but also like how do I know if this is right or not? There is an element of like, you work out, like when you do a move. The wrong way. Long enough your body, like that's what your body's used to, even if it's not good for your body, even if it can lead to injury like that, still feels comfortable to move in that way. And then when a physical trainer comes in and they're like, actually, I need you to correct your form. I need you to do this differently. We need to lower the weight, we need whatever. It's the right way, but it doesn't feel right the first time you do it. And so you've gotta do it long enough until your muscles relearn how to do it the right way. Sometimes if you've been doing things from a misaligned way mm-hmm. When I say, Hey, according to your design, this is how you're meant to show up. It might feel weird initially'cause that's not what you're used to, but just like with exercise, when you start doing it in the right way, it feels good. Yeah. Yeah there's like 6,000 ways that I wanna take this conversation, but let's focus on the task at hand. So that's your intro. You use human design to write incredible emails for people so that they come off as aligned to their audience, therefore attracting the right buyers. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. You got it. Got it. Okay. Now do me, okay. I know, right? Whew. And uh, you gave me big shoes to follow because you did such a great job. Oh, thank you. And now I have you, every time that I refer to you, you are Sam of Nomad copy. So Samantha Burmeister is our resident nomad copywriter. You help write all sorts of copy. You do sales pages and email copy, and any other type of ways that people need to use words to talk about their business and how they help people in the world. A couple of things that I really love about you is one, I think with your nomad style of life. That has really forced you to only do the things that matter because you have this priority to be able to do the things that you want with the rest of your time. And so that is so inspiring for me as another copywriter. And I think that should also be inspiring for your clients because like you're not gonna mess around. You're not gonna do busy work and you're just gonna get in and get the stuff done and give it back to them so that they can move on with their life and their launch and their stuff, which is so freaking cool. And I do think that comes out in your copy too, because you have such a straightforward, like this is the stuff that matters. Here we go, here's what I'm gonna give you and. We don't have to worry. Like you just have such an authentic and transparent way of writing. We don't have to try to read between the lines and worry about is there something else? Because No. If there was Sam would've said it. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you. Fill in the gaps. Thank you. What did I miss? I think the one gap that I would point out is that I focus on selling. I am conversion copy sales, girly. Yeah. It's always about conversion. So, but you're totally right in that. It's about being no nonsense. This is why you should want it. Here's the button, go buy it. That is so my style, so thank you. I feel seen, which is literally, our jobs is to help. It is. People feel seen. Yeah, that people feel like the only thing stopping them from achieving their goals is hitting a buy button. Mm-hmm. Which is imagine just a group full of copywriters and we're just here making everybody feel seen. We are the most visible freaking group. For being behind the scenes in everybody's businesses. Yeah, it depends. Yeah, I have, okay. I know you said you had a million directions you wanted to take this. I have two questions that are coming up for me. Would you argue that all copy is conversion copy? Like all content is really ultimately pointing to a conversion? Of action, of some way, shape or form. It should be, I think that we're, we are businesses. We are literally wasting our time if our content is not pointing towards a solution. Mm-hmm. So I think there's a difference. There's like a Venn diagram of content and copy and. I actually have a podcast episode about this, but the content is like this bigger thing too.'cause there's visual content, there's verbal content, there's written content, right? But like, if we're just talking about the words like I have a ton of content on like threads where I'm just like, guys, I went far a walk today. Like that. I don't necessarily consider a marketing avenue either. But. I think that we're just doing ourselves a disservice if we aren't leading people to a solution because while we are individuals, we're businesses and businesses mm-hmm. Are a legal entity that stands to make money. So, right. Like even nonprofits, we should be, even nonprofits are, mm-hmm. You, you have to make money to keep serving the people that you are meant to serve. Just because you're not trying to accumulate it into a bank account. Like you still need to generate income and revenue to do your work well. Mm-hmm. And I know one of your specialties is onboarding sequences or welcome sequences. Mm-hmm. So how do you find the balance in like introducing people to what you do and being a freaking business that sells? Yeah. Oh, that's a fun question. Because I was going to talk about how like, I have such a gripe with the idea of nurture content. Um, and I'm all for nurturing. I'm not saying don't nurture, Nurture is not the same as no selling or like lack of sales. So I think one good example of how I use even onboarding and client journey emails to continue to sell is in, so let's say somebody hires me and has a 60 minute one-on-one call with me, they get their initial confirmation email they get an email like 24 hours before, and. An hour before and in the confirmation email and in the 24 hour email, I am very specific. I'm very clear when I say, Hey, I'm so excited to be having this call with you, and I have found that a lot of clients. Like having more than one call with me. They like to keep working with me. This is usually just like an introduction to each other, and so just know that we can have more one-on-one calls. You can book another session with me and if one of my other services, one of my other programs is better for you, then I will talk about it on our call together. And so I am like opening them up. I'm very intentionally opening up the possibility of continuing our work together, even in this onboarding process of preparing them for the call that they've just paid for. And in sales psychology, that's called open loop marketing. And I love that you said you're just opening the door. Yep. You're not shoving them through it. And I think so often when we talk about selling, it's like this drag you by your shirt collar through that door. You're just opening it. They know it's not locked. Correct. Yeah. And like creating that open loop, like people, they don't know what they don't know. And so. We are often, like the work that we do as copywriters is using words to clear the path to Yes. That's how I talk about it when I'm working with people. Mm-hmm. So like overcoming objections or giving them a reason to say yes. And part of that is like, just letting them know that the Yes exists. Like mm-hmm. Guess what? There, there's more there than just this one thing. Yeah. Yes, exactly. So you're saying that in the welcome sequences that you write that are aligned with people's human designs, aligned with what their people need to hear, that you're kind of seeding it, you're opening the door Oh yeah. To typically a specific offer, or do you say like, here's everything that I offer in those onboarding sequences? It depends. Sure we love it. You know, depends. Are we doctors, are we lawyers? Are we copywriters? It depends. Yeah, I can, I can be anything you want me to be? It really depends on where we're starting from and where we're going. Right? Like, where do you come from? Where do you go? Cotton? And I do that really determines because if they're starting at one spot, that will tell me. And, and depending on where we're trying to lead them to, that will tell me what makes the most sense. And maybe it's a post-purchase sequence. Maybe after they've worked with you, maybe that's a good time for you to be able to say like, oh, hey, by the way, here are all of my options. But usually a business owner knows their people and knows their client journey well enough to say, Hey, at this point, these are the offers. These are the next steps that make the most sense. I also tend to look at things in a very like. Take, let's take a micro look at this. And more of the micro, like micro yeses along the way. I don't, I can't remember what that's called when, as far as like buyer psychology, sales psychology goes mm-hmm. Of like getting them to say yes to you as many times as possible. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I also, when you're taking a smaller look at things there, one or two usually makes the most sense. Yeah, so you kind of mentioned that your clients know that before they come to you. Do you also help them suss out what the best option is? Oh, for sure. When you're working with clients, do you like figure those things out with them too? Yeah. Yeah. What I think is interesting too,'cause a lot of times people come to me when they're launching, so we're looking at like the whole thing, and typically the question is like. I don't know what I need for my launch. And it's like, great, I should probably have been charging separately for like launch strategy years ago. There's an idea, but I don't, but I think that like that strategic side is included and I think part of the difference between just like a marketing generalist or a copywriter or your VA who you're just like tasking to write things and working with a copywriter is that level of strategic experience and that like good point. I'm gonna sit down with you and if you're like, I just need these eight emails, and this is what they say, like first of all, nobody does that.'cause that's not, when you go to a copywriter, that's when you just like tell your VA to write it. Mm-hmm. Or you know what to do. But yeah, it's that more strategic conversation of like, okay, this is what you're trying to sell. Now let me do all of this backwards and tell you the order in which I think you should do it. If I get the go ahead. Then I'm gonna go ahead and write that. There was just something in there where you had kind of said something of like, they know by then what they need and I was like. I'm gonna challenge you on that.'cause I don't think yeah. People always know what they need. No, that's fair. It really just depends on, usually people are coming to me and they're like, oh, hey, I'm at this point. And I'm like, okay. Mm-hmm. Well then what service makes the most sense? Gotcha. You know, and then they're like, oh, this one makes the most sense here. And sometimes they're like, I need a welcome sequence. And I'm like, great, what's it pointing to? And they're like, I don't know. I'm like, okay. So that's the first thing we gotta figure out is. Where are they going from there? Mm-hmm. And then there can be that conversation. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So in this similar vein, something else you and I have talked about recently that we will see people just, I call it the spray and pray, but like, they'll just put it on threads or they'll put on, it used to be Facebook. I need a copywriter. Mm-hmm. Most recently I saw somebody post, I need a copywriter. That's really funny. I think I saw that one too. I need a copywriter who can rate me a welcome sequence, or I need a copywriter that I can refer to my design clients. And then you check back two days later and there's 148 comments saying, here's my favorite copywriter. And it either feels like a popularity contest. Mm-hmm. An affiliate contest or just like the most worthless thing ever.'cause people are just like, I need this. What do you even like when you go back and you see the 140 comments, like, do you even bother? No, and I, I'm nosy, so I click through. Yeah. And I look and I see who's been named a bunch of times, or oftentimes it's me that's named, and it's not that I'm against being one of'em that's named. I think there's a bit of a gap on like, but what do you really need here? You know, it's like, oh, I need a welcome sequence. Or yesterday I was riffing with somebody who was like, I just don't understand the point of freebies. There's a lot of copy involved.'cause you put it on your opt-in page, then you've got your welcome sequence. It leads to, not to mention the freebie itself, if it is a, mm-hmm. Like a PDF or an ebook, that's a ton of copy. There's copy that goes into that. Freebie should be selling your other things inside of the freebie. You provide value and there's a lot of, and there. Yep. It's always an, it depends answer and people come to you with different levels of awareness, but I think there's a lot of unaware out there. So when should people reach out to you? Like what do they need when they call you? They need to not want to guess. They need to not want to figure it out on their own. I do have a lot of people who come to me after the stuff that they've been doing isn't working, and they don't know why I've done all of the things I'm supposed to be doing. I maybe they've even hired a copywriter and they wrote technically good copy, and it's still not getting the results they want. They will come to me to kind of suss it out or figure it out. But they don't really need to know anything. They just need to be open-minded and willing to like figure it out together. Mm-hmm. And I've mentioned your welcome sequences. What else do you write for people? I definitely stick in like my done for you copy is very much in email land. I don't offer. Anything else other than email done for you, copy anymore? The post purchase sequence, like the post service sequence is my favorite sequence to write. I think it's the most important sequence and I feel like it's the most forgotten. So tell me what goes into that. Probably that. So your post purchase sequence, your post service, however it works in your business, is the series of emails that goes out after the work with you is done. Sometimes a product is bought. Sometimes the service, the project is over. You can think of it like an off-boarding sequence. It's a little bit like that, but I go bigger picture. So the data shows that like 70% of your clients are willing to rehire you if given the opportunity. The problem is we don't give them that opportunity to rehire us very well. And so the things that I often will put into a post-purchase sequence, like I use their human design to figure out how we're going to approach this, but we are always asking for reviews. We are always asking for referrals, and we are always pointing back to how can they rehire us. The other thing that I really like to do with the post-purchase or post-service sequence that I think gets forgotten is. Thinking longer term thinking, bigger picture. So what's a three month check-in look like? What's a six month afterwards? Check-in look like. Just because somebody might say, Hey, I'm good for now. I don't need anything else at the moment. Okay. Unless, let's ask again. I'm like 3, 6, 9, 12 months. Mm-hmm. Let's not. Miss those opportunities that were like handed to you on a silver platter because cold leads, brand new clients are the most expensive and the most time consuming to get, and you have all these warm, hot leads sitting in your post purchase, like has been client folder to work with. Yes, they're that much more likely to work with you again, and they're that much more likely to refer you. Mm-hmm. As well. You don't have to convince them of shit like they know what it's like to work with you. They have experienced it. They know what kind of work you produce. They know what it feels like to work with you. They know what they're gonna get from it. Like you don't have to convince them of anything. Yeah. You don't have to convince them of anything. It's just a, Hey, when you're ready and you stay top of mind. Mm-hmm. I saw something recently that was like, do you do offboarding or onboarding gifts for your clients? And somebody was like, no, but I do a happy new year. Oh sure. Type of thing to send them because it's then you're top of mind planning for your year. Catching them when they're in that like mindset. Yeah. Planning and feel, like, feel that's very similar is okay. Yeah. So once you've had three months to settle into your insert service offering here that you or I wrote for then that makes a lot of sense of you've gotta come back around to them when the time is most Yeah. Opportune. Yeah. I get emails from. My oil change place, and their algorithm I know, knows that I don't drive that much. I work from home, the grocery store and the coffee shops and all that aren't that far away, so it has kind of figured out how often I get oil changes and hits me. Yeah. Magically, like right around the time that my oil change light comes on with a little coupon being like, Hey. Come visit us again. Right. And that's that kind of opportunity that we should be leaning into. So yeah, I think that's brilliant. Yeah. And the statistics are on your side. Just keep talking to people once you offboard them. Well, and even like you can just open the door, start the conversation, just like that, and then mm-hmm. When they're like, here's how it went, or Here's what's coming up next. Like, oh, that's a really great opportunity for you to be like, okay, well. I have v IP days open if you want another one. Here you go. And that reminds me, so my original question was, what else do you write? Because you're, I'm like, oh yeah, I do VIP days, and you don't, so what do you write and how do you write and who do you write for? Like, gimme, gimme your pitch. Who, yeah. Who should reach out to you and not me? I, anything Email, sequence e or email newsletters. Sometimes I have clients who come to me and they're like, Hey, I, you know, I, I need. My quarterly newsletter, I will write for them. I tend to have a lot of clients who come to me for that. They want the strategic brain and support and if I give them the building blocks, they'll actually go do the writing and then I serve as their editor or their copy editor and give them that feedback. But maybe they wanna write it themselves. They just wanna be told what to write. I'm really good at that. I also think one of the things that. I provide that I don't think that you provide as a service is I do a ton of messaging, like foundational messaging work and packages. So if people are like, I just wanna know, who am I talking to and what are some story content ideas? How should my CTAs sound? I do a lot of that and sometimes people are like, Hey, can you just gimme that information and then I'll go use it to write my own emails. And sometimes I am doing the My Path to Yes, package the messaging it is, Hey, what's the path to yes, from point A to point B? What are those emails going to be? How does all of this play out? And then I write the emails. So I write welcome sequences, follow up sequences, client onboarding sequences client journey sequences can be in there post-purchase sequences and. Occasionally I tend to work with more like coaches, creatives, freelancers. Occasionally I'll get somebody a little bit more product based and I will write like a cart abandoned or a browser abandoned sequence. But usually it's post or onboarding or welcome sequence. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of messaging, a lot of emails. Mm-hmm. From you and how many, how long does it typically take to work with you? If they are just wanting like a one-on-one, sometimes people just are like, Hey, I just need your feedback on this. You can get in within two weeks. My messaging stuff is about a two week turnaround. And the whole like easy Yes. Package. That easy. Yes. Email architect package. That's a 60 day, so that's from like our first call to you have the drafts, the copy drafts. It's a 60 day process. Yeah. Yeah. Why should they let it take 60 days when their teenager could pull it up on chat GPT this afternoon? You go for that. You try that and let me know how that works for you. Yeah. And it's just all the more reason why you'll wanna come pay one of us. Yes. Yeah, exactly. When you see that there's no ROI. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, that's one of those things that what you put into it, you get out of it. Yeah. Yeah. Also what I hear from you too is that like. So, I've set my business up to fit my schedule and a lot of times that like, you're so good at that, crank out as much as I can because what I can do really quickly is done well as well. Mm-hmm. And done better than most people are gonna write for themselves. Yep. And that means a lot of people come to me when they're like shit, Sam, I'm launching like next week. Like, that was my most recent incredible client. Honestly, she deserves her own podcast episode about it because. Wild results. Yeah. But I tend to be more like vibes based and I feel like you're very methodical. Mm-hmm. Which I think is another subtle thing of like, okay, so I need somebody to write my email sequences. For me, it's gonna be more of their sales sequences, but also that's very similar to the onboarding or the welcome sequence. Yeah. So there's some crossover there between what you and I do but also like if you want that longer engagement. You want it to be rooted in human design. Mm-hmm. You want it to be more, like I said, methodical. If you want it more like vibes and sales and go for it, then that's probably where somebody would reach out to me.'cause it's like that's just how each of us works and why there's room for Adidas and Nike and Reebok all in the same place. Nice. There's space for you and me and somebody else in the copywriting space. Yeah, absolutely. Do you find that your people are pretty good at knowing who they are and knowing who they're talking to, and you're able to extract that accurately from them? My best clients have a shit ton of data. So typically my clients are not on their first launch. They've launched what they come to me to help them with before, so it's not, I don't have a sales page. It's the sales page only converts at 2%. So like that client I briefly mentioned, she went from a 2% conversion rate to a 10% conversion rate on this last launch because we shifted all of the copy. I'll say the messaging behind the copy. Yeah. Although we didn't do like a messaging strategy but I was able to take client feedback for questions like, why did you join? Mm-hmm. And then what kept you here? You know, type of questions three months later, what are you enjoying? What are your results? So I can take that and make the improvement. My people not only have like a good vibe on where their people are, but they have data. They know what has worked in the past, they know what hasn't worked in the past, and they can typically identify like, why did I get a thousand people in my webinar but only a whatever person, open rate on the emails or nobody showed up to that webinar. That means we need a better show up sequence. Mm-hmm. Why did people come to the webinar, click on the sales page and not buy, it's'cause we need a better sales page. Yep. So, yep. It's probably less of me digging in. Like, I'm not gonna memorize every single thing about every one of your audience members, but I am gonna synthesize that information mm-hmm. Really quickly and extract the most important parts so that you get the most ROI as quickly as possible. So I, I think I probably, I honestly dilute my own abilities by saying that I'm like really vibes based. Because there's a science to it. You are methodical. Your method is just going so fast and it's happening in your brain so quickly in the way that it comes out, doesn't, it sounds like it's more vibes based, but even as you're talking, I'm like, oh, you, you are methodical here. We're not going to sell your expertise and your skill short. You know what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course, if people want more of that back and forth experience, I offer it. It's just a matter of making sure that the schedules and all of that align. Yeah. Which is okay with me. Yeah. It's just, I really thrive in that. Like, you've got launch. I'm really good at selling. Yeah. Let's fucking go. Yeah. Yeah. So good. How many like you do a lot of, yeah. However much I can write in a set amount of time. Mm-hmm. If somebody were to give you if it wasn't time-based, but it was like amount of emails based mm-hmm. Do you have a sweet spot that you've noticed of like, Hey, I, I really think sales launches do the best and this range of emails. Ooh so funny. My podcast episode that came out on April 13th, is a detailed description of the 40 plus emails that everybody should have. In their launch. So I think it's a heck of a lot more than most people think. And I touched on this earlier where I said, a lot of times people will come to me and they're like, what emails do I need for my launch? Mm-hmm. And then go write them. Yeah. And there are probably, I would say during a five day open card, about 13 emails on average that I would encourage somebody to send. Yeah. But like you mentioned, that's why I was like, yes. Tell me more. The post-launch sequence and the post-purchase sequence are just as important. And honestly, an opportunity to make. Another 20%. Yes. Yes. On top of what you just earned, right? Because you've got people there leaning in your nurture leading up to the sale is like, yep, you've got people leaning in your abandoned cart sequences. Even for service providers, there's so many, I think people's best investment in me is those during the launch that like 13. Yeah, 13 to 15 on average. Yeah. Emails. Yeah. Yeah. Do you maybe, like, you're just really good at attracting the people who aren't gonna push back on that, but do you have people who push back on the number of emails you suggest? Yeah. There's two things to that. One, the more emails you send when you're not launching, the less weird it is to send a bunch of launch emails, all the snaps, all of the claps. Yes. Because I have people who are like, Hey, I don't like selling. And it's like, because you can feel how you are showing up because you want something from your people. And so that is the reason why you are showing up. If you would just show up more often, it would not feel awkward when you're like, oh, and hey, by the way. And if you're educating more than you're pushing, if you're telling people why they should want it more than you're telling them what it is, it's gonna feel less salesy and it's not gonna, you're not gonna hate selling period. Right, right. Well, and also like if you hate selling, this is work that I do with my clients a lot is if you hate selling, then we need. We need to talk about this because like so you do or you do not believe in the work that you're doing it, it makes people's lives better. You are not a business, right? If you feel bad, giving people the opportunity to make their own informed consent they are making, they're grown ass businesses with full sovereignty over their own bank accounts. If they want to buy something, they will, and if they don't want to buy it, they won't. For them to make that decision for themselves. And so if you don't like giving people the opportunity to buy your shit, that tells me that you don't believe in your stuff then, and in which case, yeah, we do need to be talking about why you're selling it if you don't even think it's worth buying. Again, when you hire a copywriter, you're also kind of hiring your strategist and whatever. You're also lowkey hiring your mindset coach because we are going to push back and if somebody comes to me and they're like, oh, I only wanna send five emails in five days, I'm gonna push back. But you, you need that. And if you don't like it. Go hire somebody off of Upwork. Yeah, if you really I will give, like if they're like, I only wanna send, I'll let them send one a day in the middle of their launch. But we, the last day or two especially, I'm like, ideally we have two emails, if not mm-hmm. But like last end of day, but very last day, I like to send four. I think what the problem is, is that people think all of their emails are. Like you and I both know when we say, Hey, we're gonna send four emails, that literally just means we're four different times. We're sending out some sort of a message to people and giving them the opportunity to click a button. Mm-hmm. And do the thing. But I think other people hear like, oh my gosh, four really long emails. No. Like it's the last day. Like if there's ever a day where you're like, Hey, this is your last chance, like, I'm just letting you know once. If you're a procrastinator buyer like I am, here you go. It's like two sentences sometimes. Yeah. I know. There, it used to be called the nine word email pretty often. It's always longer than that, but yeah. Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's exactly it, and that's why you get. One of us or one of our friends in your corner. Mm-hmm. And I'm always referring to other copywriters. Mm-hmm. When I'm not the person to work with. I like the excitement of launching moment. So if people are in that boat and they're like, great, Breanna's my person because I need this. Where do they find you? My website, owenyourmark.com/links is one place that has all of my primary things. I do have for anybody who's just like real curious, like, what would it look like to use my human design specifically, like my human design energy type to write and inform emails? I do have a, a free resource. There under the links where you can access that and definitely do that. And if you just wanna say hi, come find me on Instagram. My handles Owen your mark. Your freebie also is one of the few free things that I've ever downloaded and then sat with and took notes. And then when I got my next couple emails from you, I sat there and took more notes. So where can we find your amazing, your freebie and what is. It is called the energy type email playbook. It is listed as one of those links. If you go to owenyourmark.com/links, it's right there. We can also include a link to it in the show notes for this podcast episode, wherever people are listening. But it is like you, part of the opt-in page is you have to fill out a form with your birth information, so your birthdate, your birth time, your birth location, that's the information we use to pull a human design chart. And then depending on which energy type you are, there are five energy types. So you get the report, you get the information and the ideas and the email sequence that applies to that specific energy type. So in, achiever, copywriter, like. I don't have one welcome sequence. Even that sequence alone is really five welcome sequences. Like I didn't write 11 emails. I wrote 55 emails for that. That's amazing sequence. Oh, see, she gets it. She gets it. Yeah, and you can find me on Instagram. I'm at nomad.copy and my website's, nomadcopyagency.com and that's where just everything lives. Do you have, I know you have a lot of like$1 resources right now, like what's your favorite resource to point people to? I love sending people to my launch emails checklist. We'll make sure that's in the show notes. It has accompanies the podcast episode too, so I'll put that there. And if you use Code Podcast, you get it for a dollar. So good. Anything else you wanna gossip about? I mean there's, I had so many, I have so many questions. Like we definitely need to make this like an ongoing series where we're like, okay, now what? Because I'm like, do you know other questions we could talk about in the future? You've touched on it just then, like nurture and value, like what mm-hmm. Does that even mean, what's that look like? I'm with you on, you have to warm people up before you start selling. So I'm totally with you there. I also am like, as a copywriter, do you find it hard to do your own messaging and your own copy work? You know? Mm-hmm. Like mm-hmm. We do it so well for other people. Do you feel like you do it well for yourself too? Oh, I have so many thoughts there's so much there. I think that opens a good door for folks who are listening. Can tell us what they wanna know, what are the behind the scenes things? Because I think there's a lot to agree and disagree on with like, should you be selling as you nurture? How much do they have to be warmed up? Are you doing them a disservice by not selling right away? Oh, I have thoughts, right? I have so many thoughts. So stay tuned for part two and reach out and let us know what you want to hear because. It could get spicy up in here. We like, we are happy to dish and gossip and spill all the tea and give you all the backstage behind the scenes fly on the wall insides of what is it like when two copywriters start talking about our stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So thank you for hanging out. Thank you.